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Differences between Ukrainian and American women

 

 

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 Post subject: Difference between Ukrainian women and American women?
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:35 pm 
 
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Paul
Added: 7:21 30th.May.2005

Hi, I was wondering is there a big difference in general between an Ukrainian wife and an American one? I have read that they take pride in supporting there husband and keeping a cozy home...I wonder if Veronika would comment on this...Thanks..

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 Post subject: Dave comment
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:37 pm 
 
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Added: 20:06 13th.Jun.2005



Dear Paul:
From all my experience over the years of being around the Ukrainian people plus visiting Kiev, I have discovered there are general differences in culture, but keep in mind there are always exceptions to the rule. In general, in Ukrainian society the man is the man and the women is the women. Man is supposed to be the bread winner and the masculine one. A man should be strong in ways we commonly view strength - leadership, protection, career, etc....Kind of like how things were a long time ago in America. The women is supposed to be gentle, kind, nurturing, feminine, beautiful with a nesting instinct, etc.....the way things were a long time ago in America.

The Ukrainian women I have known here in the US tend to be a little more conservative in general than the women in central Kiev from my experience. Probably because they are religious and probably because most of the ones I know come from smaller towns than Kiev. The ones I know here in the US are, however, very interested in family, children, cooking, homemaking, and "taking care of their husbands (not to be confused with "slavery"). It is common for a 14 year old Ukrainian girl to continually serve me food when visiting at her families home! I was shocked at this treatment because no 14 year old American girl ever did this for me. They are raised this way as small children. They help each other, older siblings take care of the younger ones, the mother teaches the girls house cleaning and cooking. The fathers teach the boys working on cars, trades, and BBQ sishlik, construction, etc. So far I get the feel from Kiev that it is the same with traditional roles, but I find the women in Kiev to be more into career and education and business. Kiev is the modern center for Ukraine, and anyone who wants to be someone goes to Kiev to achieve a career - generally speaking. So to me the women in Kiev are kind of like a medium between an American women and an traditional religious Christian Ukrainian women I know in the states.

Here is something too. Ukrainian people are smart when it comes to survival and to making a buck. Their society is a scam society - many, many things are under the table. They know how to be tough, tricky, and shrewd. It is almost instinct in them on how to make a buck on the table or under it. I can tell you stories you would not believe. Sometimes I can see it in their eyes when I deal with them. Their wheels never stop turning in this way. It is almost in their genes I think. So in this economical sense they are smart. But when I meet Ukrainian women here and in Ukraine, I feel socially they have an innocence about them that is very hard to resist. One day I heard Brett say with humor in the office something like: "All you have to do is tell a Ukrainian women you love her and ........" Now I am starting to see that. I think truly many of these women are just plain lonely and want the basics - love, family, children, security, etc..... I seldom if ever found that attitude in American women.

I find American women to be much more aggressive, outspoken, negative about men, stuck up, shallow, cold, emotionally unavailable, non-family oriented, non-traditional, less stylish in dress, and much heavier in weight. There are a few exceptions to this rule, but I think it generally holds true. I find these characteristics in American women to be across religious lines - there is generally no difference between an American women in church and out of church. I believe this to be true because of our society and culture. We have a huge amount of freedom, wealth, and choice here. We are bombarded from all directions as far as how to live. Ukraine does not have it that way.

I have been ridiculed many times in America for "looking for a women or a wife." Both men and women have made it seem that there was something psychologically wrong with me for hunting - like some kind of desperation or weakness. But then I realized that this primal instinct was actually normal, healthy, and how men were made to be. So, now I am much more proud to be a hunter and realize that it is really normal for me not to wear a dress and sit back and wait for a women to fall from the sky.

You will not see things in Ukraine like skin heads, outlaw motor cycle gangs, racial gangs, body piercings, tattoos gal ore, cowboys, gays, rockers, punkers, goth, etc.....Everyone kind of looks the same. There is no real freak show to see. There are a few minor exceptions I am sure, but I have yet to run into them going all over Kiev so far. It was strange for me because I am from San Francisco and Sacramento - where's the freak show?

Here is another thing. I hear women in Kiev talk about family and marriage all the time. I have spoken, dated, or known hundreds of women over the years in the US. Many women would think you were a freak if you spoke about marriage in the first six months. I do not find that with Ukrainian women. I believe most of them truly want those things. They are less concerned about the car you drive or the style of your shoes. They are more concerned with, "Will he provide for the family? Will he take care of me? Will he stay after we have kids? Will he not drink too much? "

Some Ukrainian women I know here in Sacramento were on break at their office job. When the American ladies in the lunch room asked what this Ukrainian women did over the weekend, she told them she cooked cakes with her daughters for the father/husband. The American women ridiculed her for doing that! The Ukrainian women could not understand how doing something kind and loving could be a bad thing!?

Do watch out for scammers, however. There are a few out there, but I had none with Brett's agency. I got good at spotting them on the net, and I would warn them ahead of time of all their not-so-original tricks before they had a chance to play them. Then they suddenly lost interest in me. There are a few women, however, who are more interested in just going to nice restaurants. Then there are a few who gave me the feeling, that they just want to meet and go to America - not to use me or scam me, but just because I was a kind of super hero from a super country. In short, they would take any Joe Average from America. Then there was one that I felt had unrealistic expectations about what life would be like in America. She thought she was going to Hollywood to be a star. She thought I would fly her back and forth from Sacramento to L.A. every weekend for her shows. But I consider all of these issue to be "normal" in finding someone. Trust me, I have found one billion times worse scenarios in America! I finally found a lady in Kiev who is working well with me now. She has never asked for money. She has never hinted or acted like she was coming to America. All in all, she has been cautious about me and cautious about coming to America. One scenario I avoided: Those women who were not willing to have some regular correspondence with me prior to meeting, I stayed away from.

Here is one very important factor - in Ukraine they do not actively teach women to be hostile toward men. In the US, it is the official policy. For example, I am a single dad of a 12 year old boy. In the public school system of California, they actively and openly teach that if a 5 year old boy holds hands with a 5 year old girl, it is called "Sexual Harassment." I have openly told my son's teacher that the system is perverted to the highest degree. In Ukraine there is not such a thing. There also is no such thing as suing someone for a slip and fall, worker's comp., constructive termination, sexual harassment (you looked at them the wrong way), etc. And unlike the Ukraine, 80% of all the world's attorneys live in the US. Also, in Ukraine children are generally taught to respect older people and adults. One young Ukrainian guy who was 20 years old at a spectator game, let me have his seat (I am 38) even though he owned it! I asked him why. He said I was older. It was so weird to me. But then I said, "This is a good thing. This is how it should be."

Yes, I do think Kiev will be corrupted in years to come. They look up to Americans and envy them in a way. They want to try to be like us. Sometimes it is funny to watch their culture try to become like us. But there will always be the ladies from the outlying areas in Ukraine. There are many things I can bash America for, but one thing I learned while working in Ukraine for charity is this: Americans are a very generous culture. We have been taught through all our institutions to help charities for the needy. This is something Ukrainians in general (rich or poor) have very little concept of with a few exceptions. But on the other hand, I find Ukrainians in general to be much more hospitipal than Americans. Every time I go to their homes, they try to make me stay and they want to feed me everything until I cannot eat anymore. :)

So there you have some ideas in a nut shell. The key is to get to know the women over time with them. One of the workers at Kiev Connections told me that the most successful couples are those who spend a lot of time together while in Kiev. It is my personal opinion that a person should write back and forth maybe half a dozen times or more. Then meet in person. If it is good, keep going. I am going back for my third trip to Ukraine and we are right now in the process of filing the paper work for her to come here. So it has been about a year or more since we first met through the writing. This is just my personal way. Everyone works different.

Also, my opinion is to keep the age difference at about ten years or less. I think it is kind of a fantacy for some old guy to get a very young Ukrainian women. But if the old guy just wants to have her for a few years to help bring her here, then it can work as a mutual understanding. I have heard of some people I know who know people who have done this.

Hope it all helps. If you ever need more specifics or whatever let me know. The harvest is bountiful - the workers are few! LOL :)

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 Post subject: Dave comment
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:38 pm 
 
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Dave
Added: 20:08 13th.Jun.2005

And one more interesting thing: I met a couple where the husband is American and the women is Ukrainian. They live here in my city and they belong to a group that meets regularly. They all are couples where one is Ukrainian and one is American. So I asked them some questions, and it just reconfirmed everything I have learned so far.

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 Post subject: Paul comment
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:47 pm 
 
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Paul
Added: 9:11 30th.Jun.2005

Hello,
I have read some articles from two American men that have lived in Russia and have dated many Russian women there. They are Jim at agencyscams.com and Winston Wu's home page. They are reputable men. They say that they are fine for girlfriends but not as a wife. They found them to be insincere, stingy and flaky. I know Ukraine is a different country and its people are much friendlier that in Russia however Ukraine does border Russia and am wondering if anyone here has seen similar qualities in Ukrainian women as in the Russian women I stated. Thank you.

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 Post subject: A commentary by: Veronika
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:48 pm 
 
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A commentary by: Veronika
Added: 12:03 30th.Jun.2005

Hi, Paul,

I have a question. How would you describe American men? Honestly, I find it really not only difficult but also, impossible to say Japanese women are such and such, Ukrainian women are so and so. Being stingy or insencere is not a part of a culture or nationality but a part of a personality. I also tend to think that some people are attracted to the same type of personalities, even if they don`t want it. May be that`s why they say all women are b...s, all men are a.. holes, Russian women are flaky. I met my portion of mean people in my life but I never stop beleiving that there are more good people, than bad. My theory is that you need to find your pair and then you will be happy. Say, if you are very sociable person, you need to find another sociable person to live with. If you are stingy, you have to have stingy wife. If you are very disciplined person, you will be much better off living with the same type of personality. It seems so obvious, that we forget about it and trying to find a perfect woman/man, who we probably, will not be able to live with, `cause she is too perfect.
This is not a direct answer to your question, Paul, but I just don`t believe there is one like that.
Anyway, it would be nice to know other opinions.

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 Post subject: Dave Aria comment
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:49 pm 
 
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Dave Aria
Added: 23:43 1st.Jul.2005

Veronika and Pual:
I like both of your comments and appreciate them on the forum. It is nice to hear from different people and different perspectives. This how I learn. Okay so here goes - my perspective.

I will preface all this by saying I spend a lot of time with Ukrainian people and some Russian people in all walks of life here in the US and in Ukraine too. I have many of them who work closely with me in my company over the last 13 years. My best friend is actually Ukrainian. But by no means am I an expert. This is why I often consult with Brett and Vlad about certain things because they live in Ukraine, and in some ways get a closer, deeper look at things.

I have heard generally speaking that Russian people are less friendly than Ukrainian. I have heard this many times before. I cannot confirm this in actually experience, however. If it is true, I believe it to be some cultural undercurrent having to do with the history, back ground, and experiences of the society in general. And even if it is true, always remember there are always exceptions to the generalities.

As far as being insincere goes, I find most Slavic people to be sincere. Generally, I think they are more sincere than Americans. This is just my general feeling. Slavic people may sneakily stab you in the back or do it plainly. I find Americans, however, will do it with a smile - which to me is really disturbing.

As far as stinginess goes, I would strongly agree with this about many Ukrainian people I know. Some people here may get angry with this comment, but I stick to my guns on this one. Keep in mind, however, that this is not always true, just generally true. There are always some exceptions. For example, my best friend who is Ukrainian here in the US would give me his shirt off his back. He shares and helps all of his friends and family more than anyone I have ever met. And somehow I believe God or universal law always brings it back to him. Blessings seem to fall from the sky in his life out of thin air.

As far as the stinginess goes, I do not say the Slavic people are this way in personal relationships or with their friends or families. On the contrary, when I visit their homes, they are the kindest, nicest, and most hospitipal people I have ever met - more than me and more than 95% of Americans I know. This is taught to them in their culture.

The Slavic people, Russian included, have been a persecuted people. Nobody really taught them formally or on a large scale about charity, generally speaking. For most of them, it has been a struggle to survive throughout history. It is a rough life filled with learning how to make a buck or a penny to get by. So in my mind, when someone comes from a background like this, emotionally the are programmed from an early age - how to survie - not how to give.

Many of my friends here in the states can tell me stories from hell about persecution and a difficult life back home. So, to some degree I have some understanding and compassion, but at times I also get frustrated about the stinginess factor.

As far as being flakes, I see a couple of things - those Slavic people who work like maniacs to achieve success because they come from a land of little opportunity. To me this is not flaky, but honorable. Then I see many Slavic people who's spirits are broken, and they live under the cold and gray clouds of apathy - hope is gone. These folks just aimlessly wander. But again, I can see why their spirts can be this way. In general, however, I do not find the Slavic people to be flakes - quite the opposite.

And in many ways I agree with Veronika too. Our relationships are connected by very deep and sometimes complicated psychological dynamics. These dynamics cross cultural lines. I think the cultural lines may direct them to some degree in how they are acted out, but they do not remove or change them. Ninety percent of emotional programming occurs in a child between the ages of birth and something like about 7 years old. This is in all cultures.

In addition, humans often seek to continually replay subtle undercurrents in their emotional programming and their experiences with their significant caretakers. We replay these scenarios in all areas of our lives - our jobs, spouses, children, friends, schooling, etc.....It is kind of freaky when you think about it as being one big broken record with many little broken records playing over and over and over again. From what I can see, it is only once in a while, that we stop these records and actually do the opposite by conscious decision......

Another dynamic in humans is finding what we need to fix - the unresolved negative problems from our childhood significant caretaker. Humans often look for these issues unconsciously in a spouse or significant other so that they can unconsciously fix them.

And remember too, I have heard psychologists say you love and hate in another what you love and hate in yourself. This ties in with the saying that when you point one finger at someone, three more are pointing back at you. So, sometimes I have to remind myself of this too.

Anyway...here is a little something about my girlfriend in Ukraine. She is definitely not a flake - she is very reliable and hard working. She is also very humorous and very sincere. Sometimes she cracks me up with her humor. We laugh a lot together. :) I do not know about stinginess.....still discovering her....

And most Ukrainians that I met and Slavic people in general I felt were sincere. I met some that were not, but I could read it all over them.

Hope this helps. Good luck to everyone. Go to Ukraine and enjoy the wonders! :)

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 Post subject: Paul comment
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:50 pm 
 
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Paul
Added: 14:15 5th.Jul.2005

I'd like to thank everyone for their informative postings especially Dave and Veronika.I am curious Veronika about the differences you have found living in America versus Ukraine. Do you find it harder to make new friends here? You can email me at pjd342002@yahoo.com.Thanks again, Do Svidaniya

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 Post subject: Dave Aria comment
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:51 pm 
 
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Dave Aria
Added: 1:17 6th.Jul.2005

Veronka:
I am curious to know the same thing Paul asked. Maybe you can write on the commentary board or you can email to me at powercleanent@aol.com I am just curious about everything in life. :)

I find many "good" and "bad" things about both Ukraine and the US upon which subjects I speak vehemently and passionately. In my mind, however, I think life would be great to combine the best of both worlds - Ukraine and the US, and leave the worst of both worlds behind. I love the wealth, climate, freedom, technology, opportunity that America provides. But I hate the "modern" values and modern ways to some degree. I also feel in general that most Americans are trivial, self-absorbed, and do not have the ability to really relate to other cultures from their perspective - to stand in their shoes.

In Ukraine, I like some of the more old fashion traditional ways, the women, and less sophisticated ways - like the legal system for business. So, if I could have both, it would be great.

As far as making friends goes, in my city most of the Ukrainians stick together and do not make too many American friends. But there are a few whom I know who actually are just the opposite - they make a lot of American friends, but not so many Ukrainian friends.

One thing that I really, really, really value about Ukrainian people very much is this: They have no real idea and concept about suing people. They do not really have an attitude so much that they are victims and the rest of the world owe's them something, especially as it relates to law suits against employers. It seems to me the Ukrainian people do not have this inbred cultural attitude of "I am going to stick up for my rights and get even."

In thirteen years of owning a business and working with many people, I have seen all law suits come from American people and not Ukrainian people. I have surveyed many people who are Ukrainian in my community, and they all agree. It is very rare for a Ukrainian person to sue another person.

Even during divorces of Ukrainian women, they can fight and get angry with their husbands, but I never see the "go-for-the throat-kill-him-take everything he owns - attitude." With 100,000. Slavic people in my community, I have yet to hear even a rumor about this kind of mind set. AND FOR YOU MEN OUT THERE, THIS IS AN ADVANTAGE WHEN GETTING MARRIED TO A UKRAINIAN WOMEN.

When the Ukrainian people have a conflict, they usually just part ways and go the other direction. To me, this is a very healthy way to live, and I have a tremendous respect for the Ukrainian people for living this way.

I have asked over and over again to Ukrainian women in my city why they do not sue people, take advantage of some free money, etc...From what they tell me, they think Americans are very strange in this way. Several have even said that we Americans are stupid for doing this - suing each other for ludicrous reasons.

Anyway, there is my two cents. Take care.

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 Post subject: Veronika comment
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:52 pm 
 
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Veronika
Added: 15:29 12th.Jul.2005

Hi, Dave,

I think the reason why America has so many ridiculous lawsuits is that a lot of Americans see judicial system as the way to get rich. Ukrainians see it as punishment for something you have done wrong. They don't see anything wrong in serving hot coffee in McDonalds. This is the way it should be. And since Ukrainians learned from experience not to mess with the system (you can't beat it) they decide not to sue anybody. The only thing I imagine a Ukrainian sueing is a murder. I also, can`t understand and never heard of anything like that in Ukraine as a lawsuit for child "negligence". Parents would agree with me. You can`t watch child every minute of the day and accidents happen. So why to sue parents in distress when they already cursed themselves million times and punished themselves with the lifetime memory of their child's death. I also, saw a show about the step father who tried to save the baby but because he did the things just to the best of his knowledge, he also being charged with involuntary murder. This is just mind blowing to me. May be that's why people turn their heads the other way, when they see somebody in trouble or needs med help. America to me is a big court room. Another point: did you notice those ridiculous instructions they put on products? They have an instruction how to use a tea bag. They instruct you to put it in tea and nowhere else (dah!!). And it`s probably because business was sued by some idiot who stuck it up his nose and needed to go to ER to take it out. This is just hilarious!!! What else I don't like about America is that despite so called freedom, you are not really so free. If you sneeze in your back yard, some agency already has a record of it, which will be there until you die and after. I like privacy law, but...don't you think it's taken overboard. You can't get your own med records from hospital, you can't call insurance company and ask about claims for your husband. Sorry it's private info. God, this is MY family's private info!
Ukraine on another hand has it's own faults. Everything and everybody can be bought for certain amount of money. There was mafia and racket. It looks like it improved a bit now. But what I noticed during my last trip is that people are becoming more and more money hungry. It was bad to live under communist propaganda all the time but along with communism spiel, they cultivated love to our country, helping each other, think about community first then about yourself. I am talking about post Stalin time: 60s, 70s and 80s. And this is what I like about America: you, guys, work hard (much more than any other nation I know may be except Chinese), you pay huge bills. I don't think you have better life than in other countries but you are so patriotic. Even American bum is proud to be an American. I really respect that! I like this great spirit. I think this is something that got lost with colapse of Soviet Union. The feeling of being united for the same big purpose, same big idea.

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 Post subject: Dave Aria comment
Posted: Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:53 pm 
 
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Amen sister Veronika! :) I agree with you!

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